Hello and welcome to whatishifi blog! The inspiration for this post came from Techmoan and his wonderful video regarding Mini Disc. Of course, I did have the seed of Mini Disc in me long before - I still have a Sony JA20ES deck.
So, even though the Mini Disc format is officially a dead one (except Japan, where Teac is still making and selling MDs in 2019), I suddenly had the opportunity and appetite to make the testing I always wanted to do - but just let me say a few words about Mini Disc first.
Back in the 90's I was desperately seeking ways to reliably copy music from my friend's LPs and CDs collections. This leaded me to a heavy, 3 head dual capstan tape deck with amazing calibration functions that would optimize the deck at the characteristics of each individual tape I was using, but it soon turned out that:
Let me note that the tape deck was the most fun to use. It was something that needed your involvement; you could calibrate the bias / EQ / level, choose the Dolby NR, set up the record level and then compare the source sound with the recorded sound and be rewarded by the results - or make everything again from the beginning, at an endless chase of perfection.
But apart from "fun" (in audiophile terms, "fun" usually means pain in the @ss), I needed something more reliable. DAT was (and still is) OK but again, we are talking about tapes - and using a tape for archiving does not provide confidence or piece of mind; you always subconsciously worry that one day, your tapes will be eaten by a machine that the evil managed somehow to get inside it.
Then came the MD, together with the Philips DCC. There was a format war for some time but as usually happens, Philips lost - this company had some stupid persistence ideas like supporting a 14bit CD instead the 16bit CD we now have, MPEG Multichannel because DTS & Dolby Digital are no good and DCC digital compact cassette at a world who was moving away from tapes.
MD was invented by Sony and the idea behind it was to compress the music in order to occupy less space; a 74 min CD is 650MB whereas an 74 min MD is around 160MB. As you understand, in order to fit 650MB of CD music in 160MB MD disk there has to be a compression. Here comes ATRAC, a lossy audio compression algorithm based on psychoacoustic principles. A simple explanation of how this works is the following: if somebody whispers near a jet airplane the human ear will not be able to hear the whisper. ATRAC decides which sounds in music can not be anticipated by the listener and removes them. It acts more or less like the MP3 compression that chronologically came after ATRAC.
MD was great: it was small, sexy, well protected at a plastic shell, could be re-recorded and could be post edited. But as often happens with technology, how good something actually is might be irrelevant with the acceptance it will get from the average user. I don't want to get deeper at pros and cons of MD or the history it has, you can watch the Techmoan video.
Reading some Hi-Fi magazines of the 90s you will see that there was always a complain about how ATRAC was sounding. The "experts" were claiming that they could always hear the effects of ATRAC - the copy was not perfect. All this fuss was making you feel that when you had copied some music in your MD it was something like a rip off - you were fooled, you did not had the real thing. ATRAC was evolving in newer and more advanced generations like ATRAC 4.0 and ATRAC Type-R but no matter how much it was evolving, the "experts" kept claiming that they could always hear it. Until one day it didn't matter any more - CD-RW was the king.
I bought my first MD deck in the late 90's - it was a Sony MDS-JE510. I liked the concept of MD so I soon upgraded to the Sony JA20ES that I still have. However, I always considered the MD copies I made somehow inferior. Today I realize that this happened for two reasons:
Since we did not want to judge the MD machine for its DAC sound quality, we used an external Parasound D/AC-1500 DAC. Our DAC is tweaked and the ST optical input is replaced by a second standard TOSlink optical input - yes, both TOSlink inputs sound the same.
We recorded at the MD a digital copy of Vivaldi: Allegro from The Four Seasons: Spring (Jacques Loussier Trio) from a TELARC CD.
At the Parasound DAC we connected with optical cables both our CD and MD players - they were acting as transports. By simply changing the digital input of the DAC we could instantly A/B compare the sound of the CD to the sound of the MD. So, we hit the play button simultaneously at both players.
Our test was blind, meaning one of us was changing the digital input at the Parasound DAC and the other was listening, without knowing what is that he is listening to.
Neither I nor Panos managed to provide constant results in what we were supposed to prefer during the blind listening test. The MD was sounding like the CD.
Again, we followed the same procedure like before; after we made an ATRAC 4.0 digital copy we replaced our CD transport with the second MD deck. So each time we were changing the digital input of the Parasound DAC we could instantly compare the two different MD recordings. We hit play at both machines and the blind test started. Results? The ATRAC 4.0 MD recording was sounding like the ATRAC Type-R recording which as you already know was sounding like the original CD...
We even tried to distinguish the sound of the two ATRAC generations by recording at the same MD media one track with ATRAC Type-R and one with ATRAC 4.0 and go back and forth between the intro of these two tracks. Still, no difference.
Panos also made some recordings from the analogue input of the MD. Even though we did not make any A/B comparison tests, knowing how the vinyl record sounds like we have to admit that the MD showed unexpectedly excellent behaviour. In future posts, this deck will be used as a recording tool in order to be able to make instant A/B comparisons in cases like cartridge comparisons.
Again, back in the 90's.
Now I think of it, almost all of the tests done when the MD was "hot" had to do with the performance of each player and not the format itself but still, somehow the verdict was presented like it was about (against) the MD format. I mean, you had an "expert" with a reference CD player making a digital MD copy and then listening to the copy through a poor MD deck that could cost 1/10 of his reference CD player. Yeah, I bet it sounded inferior or different. But since the MD was a copy, "different" instantly becomes "inferior".
On the other hand, you need a lot of balls to claim that yes, the compressed MD managed to sound like the CD. You are an expert and an expert must be able always to hear differences. There must be a difference after all, the brochure says it: ATRAC. If an expert can not hear the difference he does not deserve to be an expert or his system is crappy, not capable to reproduce the differences.
So my dear readers today I stand in front of you and I dare to say that yes, Sony did it. MD was great even though you were made to believe the opposite. I only wish that today we also had a format that with today's standards included equivalent levels of performance, ingenuity, practicality and involvement like the Mini Disk. Computer audio provides all of these with the exception of involvement, plus I find it difficult to consider my hard disk drives as sexy.
Last but not least, I understand that a lossy compression can not look very appealing but still there can be exceptions. Take for example the DVD; I prefer to watch a compressed .mkv 1080p 8.5Gb movie than a 8.5Gb DVD movie. Of course over all I prefer to watch a 50Gb Blu-Ray movie but I am afraid that this story has no end.
If you liked this post most probably you will also like this one, it has to do with MD and op-amps.
Happy listening as always!
Chris
P.S. You can take a look at all the things we have wrote about at this blog, here.
(Update! My MiniDisk malfunctioned): A short while after I wrote this post, my Sony JA20ES broke down. As it turned out, it malfunctioned for the second time due to the same problem: a broken axis of a gear at the laser mechanism. Maybe this is a common fault of the JA20ES? I do not know. Symptoms are that the drawer will not open, you can hear strange noises from the inside and an error code flashes - stupid me, I did not write the code's number down, neither did I take photos of the amazing repair job we did.
The cause of the problem is at a plastic base unit, Sony part number 4-996-254-01. The first time it lost an axis, I found a spare part but this was like 12 years ago. This time, Sony replied that spare part is no longer available (of course!). So, let me describe as best as I can what we did in order to repair this:
First of all, you have to remove the base unit section, that is the heart of the transport of the MiniDisk. You can easily remove this from the bottom of the deck, no need opening the upper part and removing the drawer mechanism.
By looking inside the MD transport, you should now be able to see the loose gear with the broken axis inside it. You have to tear down the mechanism that moves the laser head at the correct position. This is the hardest part and involves a few unsoldering, but you have to get access to the base unit that the axis was ripped off from.
The broken axis is inside the loose gear, carefully untighten the screw that holds it inside the gear and take out the broken part.
This axis (thanks God) is hollow. You need to find an appropriate screw that you will use it to hold the axis at its position on the plastic base. An appropriate screw means that it is not very long (otherwise it will meet with the other screw that holds the gear on the axis), it is not very thick (you don't want to swell the axis) and it is not too thin (it has to actually hold the axis in position). We had a collection of screws appropriate for watches and we found the optimum screw from there. From now on you understand where this thing is going. We also applied carefully some glue at the screw before screwing it in the axis. Another thing that you need to take care of is to make sure that the axis will sit at the same orientation it was before breaking up - I mean, you have to put the piece back together like you were going to stick it, face to face. By the way, make sure that no glue will escape outside the axis.
I also remember that in order for the screw's head not to protrude at the bottom of the plastic base, we dug the plastic base a bit with a drill hold by hand. We were lucky that the base was thick enough.
Just to be on the safe side, we also placed a screw at another axis - no need to wait for it to brake down!
We also applied some lubricant at all the axis and the laser head rail.
I remember that there was a tricky part of putting the base unit back to the deck, but I no longer remember the details. It had something to do with a small metal sheet that is located at the back left as you look at the deck turned upside down, facing you. I think it is a metal that helps the drawer understand it is in position, but I regret that I am not sure. Anyway, it was not something difficult, just be observative, try by moving the drawer in and out and you will find it.
And so was the JA20ES rescued. I regret not taking photos of this amazing repair, it would make a great post - but I was very stressed with the fix that I had no energy to take proper notes.
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| 90's technology that can still look sexy. |
Even my friend Panos decided to buy a used MD deck, so soon we ended up playing with a 17 years old Sony MDS-JB930 QS at a perfect condition - looking like it just came out of the production line.
So, even though the Mini Disc format is officially a dead one (except Japan, where Teac is still making and selling MDs in 2019), I suddenly had the opportunity and appetite to make the testing I always wanted to do - but just let me say a few words about Mini Disc first.
- The compact cassette could potentially sound great (this needed a lot of effort). Still, top performance might not last very long - tapes often tend to loose performance over time.
- The tape deck at some time needed azimuth adjustment, something that made all the recordings performed before this adjustment sounding dull.
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| Some of my favourite recording media. |
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| Tapes can be like girls, you tend to love the bitchy style. This Sony 950ES deck might look sexy but needs a lot of adjustments. |
Then came the MD, together with the Philips DCC. There was a format war for some time but as usually happens, Philips lost - this company had some stupid persistence ideas like supporting a 14bit CD instead the 16bit CD we now have, MPEG Multichannel because DTS & Dolby Digital are no good and DCC digital compact cassette at a world who was moving away from tapes.
MD was invented by Sony and the idea behind it was to compress the music in order to occupy less space; a 74 min CD is 650MB whereas an 74 min MD is around 160MB. As you understand, in order to fit 650MB of CD music in 160MB MD disk there has to be a compression. Here comes ATRAC, a lossy audio compression algorithm based on psychoacoustic principles. A simple explanation of how this works is the following: if somebody whispers near a jet airplane the human ear will not be able to hear the whisper. ATRAC decides which sounds in music can not be anticipated by the listener and removes them. It acts more or less like the MP3 compression that chronologically came after ATRAC.
MD was great: it was small, sexy, well protected at a plastic shell, could be re-recorded and could be post edited. But as often happens with technology, how good something actually is might be irrelevant with the acceptance it will get from the average user. I don't want to get deeper at pros and cons of MD or the history it has, you can watch the Techmoan video.
Reading some Hi-Fi magazines of the 90s you will see that there was always a complain about how ATRAC was sounding. The "experts" were claiming that they could always hear the effects of ATRAC - the copy was not perfect. All this fuss was making you feel that when you had copied some music in your MD it was something like a rip off - you were fooled, you did not had the real thing. ATRAC was evolving in newer and more advanced generations like ATRAC 4.0 and ATRAC Type-R but no matter how much it was evolving, the "experts" kept claiming that they could always hear it. Until one day it didn't matter any more - CD-RW was the king.
I bought my first MD deck in the late 90's - it was a Sony MDS-JE510. I liked the concept of MD so I soon upgraded to the Sony JA20ES that I still have. However, I always considered the MD copies I made somehow inferior. Today I realize that this happened for two reasons:
- I was affected by what I was reading from the experts.
- I was making my digital copies with a digital coaxial cable that probably was not so perfect, you can read more about it at this older post.
CD Vs. ATRAC Type-R sound quality blind test.
As I said, Panos got a Sony JB930 QS machine which has ATRAC Type-R DSP compression algorithm. As you understand, we were both curious to test the effects of ATRAC at the sound quality.Since we did not want to judge the MD machine for its DAC sound quality, we used an external Parasound D/AC-1500 DAC. Our DAC is tweaked and the ST optical input is replaced by a second standard TOSlink optical input - yes, both TOSlink inputs sound the same.
We recorded at the MD a digital copy of Vivaldi: Allegro from The Four Seasons: Spring (Jacques Loussier Trio) from a TELARC CD.
At the Parasound DAC we connected with optical cables both our CD and MD players - they were acting as transports. By simply changing the digital input of the DAC we could instantly A/B compare the sound of the CD to the sound of the MD. So, we hit the play button simultaneously at both players.
Our test was blind, meaning one of us was changing the digital input at the Parasound DAC and the other was listening, without knowing what is that he is listening to.
Neither I nor Panos managed to provide constant results in what we were supposed to prefer during the blind listening test. The MD was sounding like the CD.
ATRAC Type-R Vs. ATRAC 4.0 sound quality blind test.
We were lucky to also get an ATRAC 4.0 deck, a Sony MDS-JE510. It is my first deck which the current owner kindly lend us for the test, so we can compare the efficiency of ATRAC 4.0 with ATRAC Type-R.
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| Sony MDS-JE510 (top) and MDS-JB930 QS (bottom) waiting to be compared. |
We even tried to distinguish the sound of the two ATRAC generations by recording at the same MD media one track with ATRAC Type-R and one with ATRAC 4.0 and go back and forth between the intro of these two tracks. Still, no difference.
Panos also made some recordings from the analogue input of the MD. Even though we did not make any A/B comparison tests, knowing how the vinyl record sounds like we have to admit that the MD showed unexpectedly excellent behaviour. In future posts, this deck will be used as a recording tool in order to be able to make instant A/B comparisons in cases like cartridge comparisons.
Again, back in the 90's.
Now I think of it, almost all of the tests done when the MD was "hot" had to do with the performance of each player and not the format itself but still, somehow the verdict was presented like it was about (against) the MD format. I mean, you had an "expert" with a reference CD player making a digital MD copy and then listening to the copy through a poor MD deck that could cost 1/10 of his reference CD player. Yeah, I bet it sounded inferior or different. But since the MD was a copy, "different" instantly becomes "inferior".
So my dear readers today I stand in front of you and I dare to say that yes, Sony did it. MD was great even though you were made to believe the opposite. I only wish that today we also had a format that with today's standards included equivalent levels of performance, ingenuity, practicality and involvement like the Mini Disk. Computer audio provides all of these with the exception of involvement, plus I find it difficult to consider my hard disk drives as sexy.
Last but not least, I understand that a lossy compression can not look very appealing but still there can be exceptions. Take for example the DVD; I prefer to watch a compressed .mkv 1080p 8.5Gb movie than a 8.5Gb DVD movie. Of course over all I prefer to watch a 50Gb Blu-Ray movie but I am afraid that this story has no end.
If you liked this post most probably you will also like this one, it has to do with MD and op-amps.
Happy listening as always!
Chris
P.S. You can take a look at all the things we have wrote about at this blog, here.
(Update! My MiniDisk malfunctioned): A short while after I wrote this post, my Sony JA20ES broke down. As it turned out, it malfunctioned for the second time due to the same problem: a broken axis of a gear at the laser mechanism. Maybe this is a common fault of the JA20ES? I do not know. Symptoms are that the drawer will not open, you can hear strange noises from the inside and an error code flashes - stupid me, I did not write the code's number down, neither did I take photos of the amazing repair job we did.
 |
| A broken axis on number 258 was the cause of problem on my Sony JA20ES. |
First of all, you have to remove the base unit section, that is the heart of the transport of the MiniDisk. You can easily remove this from the bottom of the deck, no need opening the upper part and removing the drawer mechanism.
By looking inside the MD transport, you should now be able to see the loose gear with the broken axis inside it. You have to tear down the mechanism that moves the laser head at the correct position. This is the hardest part and involves a few unsoldering, but you have to get access to the base unit that the axis was ripped off from.
The broken axis is inside the loose gear, carefully untighten the screw that holds it inside the gear and take out the broken part.
This axis (thanks God) is hollow. You need to find an appropriate screw that you will use it to hold the axis at its position on the plastic base. An appropriate screw means that it is not very long (otherwise it will meet with the other screw that holds the gear on the axis), it is not very thick (you don't want to swell the axis) and it is not too thin (it has to actually hold the axis in position). We had a collection of screws appropriate for watches and we found the optimum screw from there. From now on you understand where this thing is going. We also applied carefully some glue at the screw before screwing it in the axis. Another thing that you need to take care of is to make sure that the axis will sit at the same orientation it was before breaking up - I mean, you have to put the piece back together like you were going to stick it, face to face. By the way, make sure that no glue will escape outside the axis.
I also remember that in order for the screw's head not to protrude at the bottom of the plastic base, we dug the plastic base a bit with a drill hold by hand. We were lucky that the base was thick enough.
Just to be on the safe side, we also placed a screw at another axis - no need to wait for it to brake down!
We also applied some lubricant at all the axis and the laser head rail.
I remember that there was a tricky part of putting the base unit back to the deck, but I no longer remember the details. It had something to do with a small metal sheet that is located at the back left as you look at the deck turned upside down, facing you. I think it is a metal that helps the drawer understand it is in position, but I regret that I am not sure. Anyway, it was not something difficult, just be observative, try by moving the drawer in and out and you will find it.
And so was the JA20ES rescued. I regret not taking photos of this amazing repair, it would make a great post - but I was very stressed with the fix that I had no energy to take proper notes.
The compression algorithm was the best sounding one I have encountered at medium bit rates. Also the Sony equipment genuinely had very good built in DACs that seemed optimised for the format. I still like to listen to the MDS JE480 - crystal clear, pure, lively sound.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comment! Well, even if we did not make an A/B comparison test between the built in DAC and our modified Parasound external DAC, we are confident that a good external DAC will boost the performance of the MD.
ReplyDeleteChristos
Great article , keep it up guys . Still using my MD decks and portables on a daily basis .
ReplyDeleteMy favaurite audio format together with cassettes .
Thank you Jimmy!
ReplyDeleteI got a minidisc walkman mz r90 in 1999.It was the coolest thing back then for me at least.I could record the music from the clubs i was going.I was 17 btw.After hours,many djs played only from vinyl and i asked them if i can record their music.And every one of them accepted and they liked the device a lot.I got my driving licence and i installed an md head unit made by sony in my car.
ReplyDeleteOnly good memories...
Everybody was listening to shitty music and i could listen to the music directly from the club mixed by a guest dj.
I still have mds and walkmans and i still use them,also cassettes and negative film and vinyls.Every format has it's pros and cons.
The recorded minidiscs recorded 20 years ago sound the same with no issues on a propper md.The cd-r's however suck big time.Even my 10 year old hdd crashed,it was used only to store photos and vids,still crashed...stored properly.The Minidisc is a tough format but has to be good quality like a sony premium md.Cheap tdk's suck in the long run from my own experience
Still have a MZ-R30 working fine, except the original battery. Thank you for your comment!
DeleteNice and down to earth post. I'm in the same boat regarding the MD sound quality. My Sonys work flawlessly: 930,520 and a walkman somwhow-510 netmd. Very underrated devices, high quality buits, parts and design. A pleasure to use them. Especially 930, love that machine. Maybe post something new on the subject sometime? Greetings!
ReplyDeleteHello and thank you for stopping by! For the moment nothing new regarding this subject in the horizon - however I have to admit that we always wanted to make a comparison between CD-R, DAT, MD and tape copies.
DeleteInteresting to read your JA20es repair. In 2010 Goldie was repaired (£80) with Sony's gear-mount. Blackie failed a few years back: only works if laid on its side! Shame about the missing repair pics - seems pretty complex if the Sony part is NLA but your narrative may help...
ReplyDeleteSo am now cagey about using the working JA20es (have 6 machines inc. Pioneer 707/508 & Denon 1000) + many 100's of unused blanks...
Thank you for commenting. Yes, it is such a pity I did not think about making a separate post about the repair with detailed description and photos - I guess I was very anxious back then just to repair the machine.
DeleteJust a tip. If you have new old stock minidiscs record on them. You can then reuse at a later date.If left as new they can deteriorate.Its a chemical reaction once used they will record time and time again and not look pristine but be useless... Martyn.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI still love MD. I got my first in 2001 and it was a toss-up between a CD burner & an MD recording walkman. Both cost $400 back then. I went for the MD as it was very portable and stand-alone and had zero regrets. As soon as people say this or that format is better because it sounds "warm", I get very suspicious but when it comes to MD, I swear there is something extra warm and special about it. I don't know if it's because of the DSP Sony uses in its players or the ATRAC format, probably the former but even today I like the sound from my MD through a cheap pair of Sony over-ears better than anything else including lossless files over my phone's fancy DAC via my expensive earbuds. I still take the MD out walking. The MD was *the* perfect replacement for the flawed cassette and I reckon we'd all be using them today if CD-R hadn't come along and ruthlessly mown down everything in its wake.
ReplyDeleteStill using minidiscs after first buying a Sharp in 1999. Now growing a nice collection of colourful units (red, pink or yellow) 😁. Anyways who remembers the Winamp plug-in that transferred titles to the discs as you recorded in real time and anyone remember audio galaxy and it’s little download satellite, found so much on there until it was shut down (mid download!) and replaced by a crap version!
ReplyDeleteForgot to say also just bought my first ever ever md boom box and now can listen to sp discs but not lp2 or 4 😕
DeleteWow!! Let me wade in with my size 14’s in 2023. Im still using my Sony MZ-R3 and my MZ-N1. I’ve recently been transferring vinyl onto MD and have been snapping up as many MD’s as i can from FB marketplace. Today i bought 162 for a measly £40!!! As pointed out before our tapes from the 90’s won’t be sounding so great now and a lot of cd’s I burned 10-15 years ago have either got ‘the rot’ or have become scratched when they spent time in my cars over the years. Hdd’s have been a real pain too. I recently lost 5tb of music with a hdd failure. Then there are the md’s i made in the mid to late 90’s which sound exactly the same.
ReplyDeleteThnx for sharing!
DeleteBuenas tardes a todos, fanáticos del MD.
ReplyDeleteHace unos años empecé con esta bendita locura del mini disc. En estos momentos poseo más de 40 reproductores de bolsillo y 6 de estantería, además de unos 700-800 discos.
Durante estos años he ido perfeccionando la manera de grabación. Tengo también en el PC el programa Sonic Stage e igualmente uso el programa nuevo del italiano Stefano Brilli. Pero los mejores resultados los obtengo grabando en tiempo real y siempre en modo SP. La clave está en utilizar buenos reproductores de Hi Res y buenos DAC, y sí que ya sabemos que es un sistema comprimido, pero a mejor calidad de fuentes, mejores resultados. Reseñar también que he hecho grabaciones en PCM sin comprimir en reproductores Hi MD y prefiero las que hago en ATRAC desde un SONY MDS 52, un reproductor profesional donde utilizo las conexiones balanceadas (XLR).
Tengo reproductores Astell & Kern, Sony Hi Res, Cowon, Pioneer, IPod con Dolby Atmos, y buenos y modernos Fiio; pero prefiero el encanto de escuchar mis grabaciones MD en mi Sony MZ RH1 con mis Sennheiser IE800 y IE800S, o en mi Sony MDS J20 con un Dac Topping E70 Velvet a través de un ampli vintage Pioneer A8. En ambos casos, el Nirvana acústico.
Y para otro hilo, dejaré las magníficas grabaciones en cassette que estoy haciendo, siguiendo las mismas pautas que con el mini disc.
Buenas tardes.
Just to remember that radio recordings made on analog mode INTO a Sony MDS-JE 480 are incredible. I am talking about note compressed radio emission by Antena 2 portuguese classic music radio station. So, i have made recordings off PROMS with high quality tuners like Denon TU 355 or Sony sta-xj5 and i can say there os a diferent quality, a realistic acoustical manner that only vynil can reach.
ReplyDelete